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 Definition of Avant-garde Metal? 
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Haha! One Dog Fashion Disco song came up that was really heavy and distorted, in a stoner/doom metal kinda way. Surprise, it was from a Melvins tribute! Now I'm gonna listen to Rhapsody (of Fire) and dream of better days...

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February 4th, 2008, 9:58 am
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I'm not saying John Zorn is a metal musician at all, I'm saying how in the realm of jazz he has to do so much more before he's considered avant garde than any metal musician would have to do to get the same title.

And even so, not all of John Zorn's projects could be considered jazz. Some of them are just so out there you can't possibly put a classification on them. I would check out the Naked City album Grand Guignol(To get a real taste I'd skip the first track, it sounds way different) It may not enirely be metal but there's no doubting there's a hell of a lot of metal/grind in there. And it has the brilliant vocals of that screaming guy from hanatarash.

I really don't think they should get special privileges by being on a more commonly conformist medium, I think they should be held up to the same standards as everyone else.

I wouldn't judge much on your limited listenings to DFD and Estradasphere. Estradasphere does do a lot of genre mixing, but always in some of the most brilliant and interesting ways. Unexpect started off as some not always interesting black metal but evolved into a very unique that puts more composition into each song than some metal bands do to a whole album. I would suggest the album In the Flesh Aquarium.
I agree their black metal wasn't that great but when they got beyond that they're the only band I know that can have three different voices saying three completely different things without making the song hard to follow.

The current DFD myspace is definitely not a good choice to judge them on. The first two songs are not even DFD but DFD related projects. And the two real dfd songs on there are oddly enough a couple of their genre mix songs, which they don't really do that often. I would suggest the albums Committed to Brighter Future and Adultery.

I'll try my best to check out those albums.


February 5th, 2008, 8:44 pm
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revon wrote:
Is drone doom a kind of avantgarde music?


Is drone doom any kind of music? :P


February 24th, 2008, 5:19 pm
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Quote:
Is drone doom a kind of avantgarde music?


No. It might be to some extent, but I'd prefer just to say no, big time. Experimental, yeah, maybe. But... no. I wondered whether Sunn0))), for example, would fit into here, but... nah. Leave them to WIRE.

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February 24th, 2008, 5:24 pm
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Yo!


March 27th, 2008, 10:13 pm
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A thought:

I realised the other day that Avantgarde Metal is the only "type" of extreme metal (quite vague what "extreme" really implies though, if you keep reading) in which Christianity and a general positive attitude towards things is sustainable. Happy (religious or not) thrash, death/grind, doom and especially black metal (the main forms of extreme metal) are, in my opinion, supposed to be destructive. This is of course a very vague and wide meaning of destructiveness - from ultra-orthodox misanthropic BM to war/violence to political themes to melancholy - but my main reasoning is that extreme metal is destructive. Might be in a good way, but extreme metal should always adher to darkness/destructivity/the regular negative sides of life.
Heavy and Power Metal are of course excluded, since there's no problem praising (nice) gods or wanting to make love to a woman in those styles. And again, this is very generalising.
BUT - my point being - avantgarde metal (music corresponding to what is discussed above) is excepted. Singing about being happy and/or Christian (or Jewish, Muslim, Shintoist, whatever) is not an obstacle for bands in this genre to appear credible. A death metal band singing about the greatness of Jesus and being nice to eachother... well, the musicians might believe in it, as many do, but it shouldn't have a position in the philosophy behind the music. Perhaps I'm narrow-minded, but extreme metal shouldn't be like that. Negative topics and extremity goes hand in hand. Except in AGM.

That came out quite too confused I suppose, but the argument is this:
Avantgarde metal that is Christian does not lose credibility, whereas other forms of extreme metal would.

(note: this does not really account for doom metal, that style could easily be performed with the sombre solemnity and melancholy inherent in the Christian faith. but happy doom metal is as awkward as christian black metal.)

(note 2: I have no problem with musicians being christian and using their faith as lyrical themes. just not in my metal.)


March 28th, 2008, 9:05 pm
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I can tell you examples which are generally considered AG but has negative topics: Havoc Unit, Ram-Zet, Age of Silence, etc.

I don't think you can separate metal into three group: the negative (extreme), the happy (heavy, power, etc.) and non-negative (AG).

BUT generally AG bands "live outside the world", most of them has its own universe which apparently has no negative human/society side to tell the listener. If there is, they usually don't even care about it, their attitude is more like L'art pour L'art.


March 29th, 2008, 10:55 am
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Its strange though how even AGM bands like Mr. Bungle or Fantomas have a disturbing almost dark aura aournd the "happy" parts of their music.....

it works much better in fantatical metal like black polka metal (fintroll) or drinking bardic extreme metal (korpiklani)

i prefer my avant garde stuff to be on the draker side though (later obliveon, red harvest) and generally it was the drakness of emperor and moonpsell type stuff that got me hooked onto extreme metal in the first place......

its also inetersting that earlier proto-power metal bands (80's speed and prog metal etc) were less obsessed with the happy chord progressions and themes than the children they beget (every one from queenryche , armoured saint, riot and nasty savage to sanctuary and fates warning covered a wide spectrum of emtions on theri albums)

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March 29th, 2008, 1:19 pm
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I'd say a very small minority, if any at all, bands reviews/listed/mentioned here are at all happy in any way. Metal=darkness. All I meant was that Agm, unlike other extreme forms of metal (that is, not heavy/power, which I don't count as extreme), does not require darkness. Most of the time, it is dark in some more or less vague manner, but it's not a necessity.


March 29th, 2008, 5:17 pm
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the darkness is often accompanied by surreality, humour or satire or embedded in something more intircate and detailed...

plainly speaking its less ARRRRRRGH KILL DIE

and more of a HMMMMMMMMM DIE ? REALLY ?

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March 31st, 2008, 12:47 pm
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Quote:
plainly speaking its less ARRRRRRGH KILL DIE

and more of a HMMMMMMMMM DIE ? REALLY ?


haha, perfect description!


March 31st, 2008, 4:53 pm
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aVoid wrote:
A thought:

Negative topics and extremity goes hand in hand.

Right. I consider myself very open-minded, but I think this is the one rule that must be observed. Extreme metal by its nature expresses aggression and negative emotion--if this rule is violated, it ends up being silly and meaningless. I don't even like the use of major chords in extreme metal. Extreme metal fills a certain role for me, I guess--if I want happy emotions, I listen to Mozart, not extreme metal.

aVoid wrote:
Avantgarde metal that is Christian does not lose credibility, whereas other forms of extreme metal would.

You might be right, although I can't think of any examples off the top of my head where this has worked. I easily think it could--if only because avant-garde metal by its nature challenges convention. The anti-Christian thing would be just another of these conventions.

aVoid wrote:
(note 2: I have no problem with musicians being christian and using their faith as lyrical themes. just not in my metal.)
Thinking about it, I think Christian faith could work in metal, as long as its ultra-orthodox. It's interesting how ultra-orthodox Satanic bands like Deathspell Omega have a lot in common (in terms of atmosphere and mood) with ultra-orthodox Christian classical music like Arvo Part and Penderecki. I'm listening to Penderecki at the moment, and it achieves a kind of darkness that black metal has never reached. I guess this is because the Puritanical strains of Christianity are ultimately kind of evil and negative (as far as I'm concerned).


April 13th, 2008, 7:22 pm
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Quote:
I don't even like the use of major chords in extreme metal.


I understand what you mean, however some actually makes it work awesomely, like Chaos Omen (Swedish BM from Tore G Stjerna of Necromorbus & the Swedish newschool satanists). The key is using major tonality in a very not-happy way... which of course requires a damned skilled musician.

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The anti-Christian thing would be just another of these conventions.


Yeah, it became a convention pretty fast... it's a very valid thing to use, of course, Satan is still the greatest source of inspiration. I actually read a pretty old interview with Tom G Warrior, where he said that when they released the first Celtic Frost records (in -84), they clearly opposed Satanism unlike their contemporaries. Which is just surprising considering what part of extreme metal it was that took CF closest to their hearts...

Quote:
Thinking about it, I think Christian faith could work in metal, as long as its ultra-orthodox. It's interesting how ultra-orthodox Satanic bands like Deathspell Omega have a lot in common (in terms of atmosphere and mood) with ultra-orthodox Christian classical music like Arvo Part and Penderecki.


You've got a strong point there. The complete dedication and harsh ascetism, same shit different name you know.

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I'm listening to Penderecki at the moment, and it achieves a kind of darkness that black metal has never reached.


I guess that's mostly because BM generally is played and composed by guitar-wielding metalheads rather than academic conservatory students, though DsO would probably prefer the company of said Penderecki or Alfred Schnittke (whose Requiem is beyond words), then your avarage BM band.
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April 13th, 2008, 8:48 pm
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Benjininja wrote:
I'm not saying John Zorn is a metal musician at all, I'm saying how in the realm of jazz he has to do so much more before he's considered avant garde than any metal musician would have to do to get the same title.


I just listened to Zorn's trilogy with Mike Patton, Trevor Dunn, and Joey Baron - sound pretty metal to me. In fact, very Avant Garde Metal.

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April 14th, 2008, 12:27 am
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anyone heard the melvins / fantomas big band....fukin insane..........

a thing i find rather odd is that not a lot of experimental hardcore bands are discussed here, though some of them were aeons ahead of the metal experimentation of the time..........ditto for the noise rock scene

bands like gasp and man is the bastard made some very intense dark and heavy records, the sound of which is unmatched till today

multiple bassists, drummers, samples galore and power fukin violence....

even the first wave of emo-screamo violence had some really amazing bands, who were all over the map musically

plus what of stuff like band of susans or glenn branca

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April 17th, 2009, 11:02 am
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